I recently went to a lovely bridal shower where several older, married women shared advice with the bride-to-be. The advice was great. This post is definitely not to criticize anything that was said. The purpose of this post is to raise a question about something that wasn’t said.
During the “give-advice-to-the-bride time,” with only Christian women in the room, nothing was said about sex. Come to think about it, I’ve been to many Christian bridal showers where advice was given but never, in my experience, has this topic been raised.
Am I the only one who, during this advice time, is thinking about the unmentioned “elephant in the room”? We all know what brides and grooms do. We also know that sex is a source of conflict for most couples, especially during their first year of marriage. Isn’t it relevant, after all?
Young women are already getting sexual messages from the world—when they turn on the television, drive on the road, stand in line at the grocery store, and also from their friends. Why is it that the Christian community is so averse to talking about it publicly when it’s already a part of everyone’s public lives?
WHOM should we best hear about sex from—older, godly women who can give us truthful messages about the subject or worldly influences and misinformed peers?
Why is it so hard, when talking about how money can be a problem your first year of marriage, to say that sex can be a problem too and you need to communicate about this area and be patient and persistent in working it out.
Why is it so hard, when telling a bride-to-be that she needs to respect her husband, to say that sex (like respect) is a need—both a physical and emotional one—that men have.
Kevin asked me if, given the chance, would I broach the subject at a shower. I told him that I likely would but, honestly (and unfortunately), it would have required some gut.
How do a lot of Christian young women learn about sex? The overwhelming majority of my friends learned about the “facts of life” in only ONE conversation with their mothers (a few friends told me their mothers didn’t even do this), and then learned everything else they know about sex from worldly sources.
My mom told me and my sister about sex after we heard the word “rape” on television and asked her what it was. I was about seven at the time. We didn’t talk about sex again until shortly before I got married and basically it was only a passing sentence so my mom could give me a book to read. I’m really grateful she did this but I do think that there definitely should have been a better history of conversations.
I think it’s imperative for Christian women to get past their discomfort and take initiative in talking about this important subject. They need to provide information, accountability, and encouragement to young women.
I hope that I can have conversations about sex with Meredith early and often, even if it means I have to dig through Teen Magazine and ask her what she thinks, is that biblical, etc., in order to initiate conversation. (But, because sex is so center-stage in our world, I don’t think it will even be that hard to initiate conversation, if I look for opportunities and am unafraid.) I also hope that other godly women in Meredith’s life will have the courage and grace to have biblically-based conversations with her on this topic too, especially when she is a young adult and needs truthful messages and accountability.
Some people might say that all sex conversations should be in private. I disagree. Obviously you need to be tactful—and I don’t think it’s appropriate to divulge certain specifics and things your spouse would likely be uncomfortable with. But having said that, especially since we live in a sexualized world, we Christian women need to stop treating openly-sexual conversations as taboo.
If older, wiser Christian women don’t inform a young woman’s views on sexuality, the world is ready and anxious to do it for them.
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33 comments:
Thank you for this post, Amy! I think you point out a great failing in our Christian communities. (It makes me wonder, though, what the topic of conversation is at lingerie showers. I've never been to one so I wouldn't know, but I wonder whether you could really ignore the 'elephant in the room' there, given the subject matter.)
I've had the same thoughts about Jane, and now Ella. Another reason I am SO glad to have girls!
Sorry for the randomness - I stumbled across your blog today and thoroughly enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this!
I couldn't agree with you more. As a fairly newly-married Christian woman, I was not prepared in the least for marriage in terms of sexual knowledge. I don't mean worldly "knowledge" (although I CERTAINLY didn't know much of that, either!) but rather, I had no clue about the emotional or physical aspects of sex and how those aspects would pertain to my husband and I. I didn't realize how big a conflict sex would be, especially to two 'newcomers' and I certainly could not have guessed that it'd be as big or all-consuming of a struggle as it was.
I think many Christian women believe, pre-marriage, that since they are in love, and have conducted a chaste life in preparation for their husband, that there will be no problems within the marriage, and that is just not true. If anything, our desire and choice to honor God by waiting and remaining pure is a bit of a stumbling block to our sense of reality. After all, we really have no clue, not having any firsthand experience.
I also agree with you when you say that Christian women should not hesitate to talk about and discuss the subject - done tastefully, the benefits are immense.
It took my husband and I a good six months to finally sort things out. As we approach our two- year anniversary, it's been both an honor and a pleasure to guide other engaged couples through this beautiful but often difficult process before they enter into matrimony. Your thoughts on this were spot-on and well put! :)
Faith, visiting from VA
I will say that there was discussion of sex in the devotional at at least one of my wedding showers, and I've seen it at a few others, although you're right, not many. And my mom was good about discussing sex--at least in general terms!--with me and its importance in marriage, which was very good because she didn't live long enough to give "The Talk" before the wedding. I'm glad she didn't wait.
As it happens, it never has been a source of conflict in our marriage--so I'm not sure what, exactly, advice I would give to a bride--but I'm sure part of the reason for that was that I had always heard from godly older women that it was something good and worthy and important, and something that might take a little work.
Amy
I completely agree with you that the older women need to take a more active role in sex education. Absolutely! But since the bridal shower is a public event for blessing the couple materially, perhaps those conversations should be held privately. Problem is maybe they aren't happening there either...Then you have the flip side of the shower extreme to the "personal shower," where sex is the focus, but not necessarily spoken of biblically.
I think we can blame the feminist movement for pushing Christian women into a corner, as they tried to defend and maintain biblical womanhood. However, it's time for Christian women to get over the blushing and be honest about feminity.
Hi Amy,
I totally agree with you. Thankfully, my mom was one of those rare women who believed that preparing for that part of marriage was to be talked about openly and for years ahead of when I would need it. My younger sister and I have thanked her many times for making sex a normal and open subject while keeping certain specifics like you mentioned very private. Our husbands have also commented on how our attitudes towards that part of our marriages is very different from most other wives, and I believe it is because it was not treated as unmentionable but a normal part of marriage.
I only hope that I am able to teach my daughters about how God created sex as something wonderful as well as my mom has prepared us.
Terri
LOVED your post, Amy. I agree with you 100%. You should read "Real Sex", a book that Shannon loaned to me while I was home. The author spends a lot of time on this subject as well. You are right on target. I hope that you do have the courage to speak out when you have the chance.
One comment about "lingerie showers" because this was brought up twice.
First--These showers are typically attended by peers of the bride-to-be, i.e., other young women who don't have the same wisdom (typically) that older women have. At lingerie showers gals usually laugh and joke about shallow sexual things. There is nothing meaningful or constructive discussed at lingerie showers, in my experience.
Secondly, Shannon--I think that a bridal shower (female Christian women gathered around) is the perfect place to discuss sex in a helpful way, especially if an "advice session" is already happening. This is only a semi-public event. I think if older, Christian women were more open at showers, again in a constructive and tactful, yet honest, way then it would do a world of good for us younger women--we would feel more open to discuss the subject and we would all benefit from good advice on something that is relevant to us.
But, you're right, the conversations aren't happening in private either. I think they should happen in private and I don't think women should shy away from being open, in a tactful way, at something like a bridal shower or a women's bible study, etc., etc.
Oh, and Megan, yes I have read "Real Sex: The Naked Truth about Chastity" and I also recommend it.
Bravo Amy! While talking about sex is not always comfortable, it is part of life and what better for us Christian women to hear from women of "experience".
Amy – I totally see your point, but I think I have to agree with Shannon. Showers may involve older women, but they also often involve single women. As a member of the single crowd, I have to be honest and say that I personally don’t find it comfortable to be in a room full of women discussing sex. It’s not that I’m uncomfortable with the topic – my mom has always been very good about discussing the realities of this part of marriage. It’s just that as a single person, I really don’t want to be the only one in the room who has no way to relate to the discussion. Wedding showers are joyious, but they can be difficult for the single person. I have found at times that I feel like the odd man out, especially if everyone else in the room is married. When the topic of sex comes up, I often feel even more out of place. I definitely think that while young women need older women (whether it’s their mother or others) to guide them in this area, I think it’s important to be sensitive to ALL who are in attendance in a shower. These discussions should definitely be handled somewhere other than a shower, in my opinion.
Jeanette--I see what you say but I guess I think it's important for single women to be a part of these conversations too. As far as "relating"--the bride-to-be is ALSO still a single person. :)
You should read Lauren Winner's "Real Sex: The Naked Truth About Chastity." It's actually geared toward single people but she talks about sex being a "community" thing. You would find it interesting.
One more thing (Jeanette)--as a single person, you also can't relate to fighting with a husband over how to spend money. But we DO talk about that at bridal showers. It's probably not the "inability to relate" so much that is uncomfortable but the topic of sex itself.
My point is that we Christians need to talk about it more so that it's not so uncomfortable (for both single people and married people alike). The world talks about it all the time in a misleading manner--we need to talk about it in a truthful context.
Does that make sense? :)
Jeanette,
As a single person, I have often struggled with attending wedding showers. I have to say, thanks to reading Lauren Winner's book Real Sex, I enjoyed myself for the first time at a lingerie shower last week. I finally understood (and embraced) the role my commitment to chastity played in the shower. It's easy to feel like we singles are the unpicked wallflowers at bridal showers, but without my chaste life, my friend's marital sex would have no meaning. So I do think that conversations about sex are important in mixed (meaning single and married) company; our discomfort is only what we let it be. Even though I have abstained from sex, I still have something to contribute. My comment about showers was geared more toward the bride's discomfort rather than the rest of the single crowd. Although, Amy has a point about the increase of discussion leads to increase of comfort level.
I think there needs to be a golden mean. Too much and too specific discussion is embarrassing for the bride. Besides, in a chaste Christian community, you know where each woman got most of her experience. It quickly can become too much information. ("Darn! I wish Mrs. Jones hadn't said that about pillows! Now every time I see them that's all I think of!") Real discussion of sexual things should be private, or in a setting devoted to that specifically. Sex is sacred and personal, and doesn't air well in a large, casual group.
That said, neither should a Christian bridal shower ignore sex. It's a normal aspect of life, not a slightly smutty indulgence of a few daring souls. General comments could be helpful -- "Even if one of you isn't in the mood, it's good to make the effort for the other's sake." "If he's feeling depressed, probably the best thing you could do is start some fun."
Another thing I thought of: these women have been years married. That first nervous excitement about sex has faded, and they probably don't recall exactly what it's like when sex is the all-engrossing topic. After all, there's so much more to marriage than the bed.
-- SJ
(Lots more I keep wanting to add, but if this gets any longer you'll have to export it to my own blog as a post.)
Brilliant post! I thoroughly enjoyed reading the post (and comments), and have added "Real Sex" to my reading list.
-Sarah
I think it would be hard to have a non-ebarrassing talk about sex at a wedding shower, mostly because I think most Christian women are in the same boat with our moms not even talking to us about it. I know personally my mom mentioned it once when I was in 7th grade, to give me a book about cats having kittens or something. Right. Anyway, I hope to do a much better job with my daughter(s)! It's almost like Christians think that by talking about sex in the proper context they are being too worldly -but really they are just letting the world's shallow view of sex define the conversation instead.
There ARE good Christian books about sex out there, I wonder why those aren't at least mentioned in premarital counseling, even if you wouldn't want to have a discussion about sex with your pastor...but maybe more Christian women should be stepping up and talking to engaged girls about this.
Good topic, Amy!
I agree with Jeanette. ALL bridal showers that I have been to had young teens, and sometimes younger girls present. I don't think it's appropriate, with a younger audience, to have a discussion which is geared towards godly advice pertaining to preparing for the marriage bed. There is a time and a place for everything. Even Song of Solomon talks about "waking love when it is ready". I totally see your point Amy, but an open bridal shower should have topics appropriate for everyone. And I also understand that bridal showers don't always include young girls. But even as an unattached single person, I don't think it's healthy to receive advice intended for a bride to be, preparing for marriage.
Now, I had a lingerie shower, and the women who were invited were all married. It was a special time of godly wives sharing their wisdom, which I really appreciated. Our pastor's wife had prepared a devotional, and most of the women gave encouragment relating to different things. Just wanted to share that not all lingerie showers are shallow. :)
Now I definitely agree that this topic should be discussed and not avoided like the plague, but in the appropriate setting, that's all.
~jenna
Well, you generated quite a conversation, Amy! Leave it to you. =D
You know, I keep hearing this complaint that people aren't sharing about sex or talking about it as people are preparing for marriage. Perhaps I am old fashioned but I don't think it's a topic that warrants general and public discussion. I'm with the crowd that would like to guard the "innocent" as long as possible. It would certainly be prefereable if we were to hear these things from our parents. What better source? Who has more responsibility?
I know I, for one, woudl have been positively MORTIFIED to have had this discussion at my shower -- and would even still tend to avoid it.
We didn'thave any conflicts and, being raised as we were, were both on the same level knowledge wise. If anything, I'm in support of the idea that parents do the honest discussions at the time they deem most appropriate while teaching a Biblical approach on the subject which should encourage everyone to WAIT for marraige --- at which point this "discussing it at the shower" wouldn't be an issue at all.
I do agree that Christian women need to talk about sex but I tend to also agree with those that think another time and place would be more appropriate. I genuinely have never even noticed that sex was not a part of the advice at a shower and haven’t felt that it was an “elephant in the room.” In my experience, most showers have younger girls present and while it's important for them to learn, it is not our place to decide when sex (or how much detail) is addressed with someone else's daughter. Perhaps, if sex were addressed in very general terms it would be fine but I’m not convinced that an advice time is incomplete with no mention of sex and I would hope that the bride would get further, more specific advice at another, more appropriate and private time.
I don't know many chaste brides that would feel comfortable having sex discussed with 20+ women (including mother-in-law etc.). Just because it is a more comfortable subject for some does not mean it is for the bride (rightly or wrongly) and a shower is a time to celebrate with her, not make her squirm in her chair and turn red. However, I would have appreciated being able to openly talk to a few older Christian wives – ones that I had a closer relationship with.
That said, I do take my responsibility very seriously to talk to engaged girls (that I'm close to) about sex. My book recommendation would be "Sheet Music" by Kevin Leman. It is a great and helpful book although the author wisely suggests saving a portion of the book for the honeymoon.
I do appreciate the sentiment that as Christian women, we need to be approachable, open, and honest about the huge role sex plays in marriage. And we need to make ourselves available not just before the wedding but also for the following days, months, and years. The marriage bed is beautiful and sacred and should be discussed with great respect but the point is (as you clearly state, Amy), it must be discussed.
(Sorry this is so long :)
-Alaina
I find it interesting how many people are uncomfortable with sex being discussed at bridal showers. Do you watch movies? Read magazines? Walk down the street? Sex is flaunted and talked about everywhere and I am not quite sure how singles, young girls, and everyone else would miss it. I don't think Amy is advocating the sharing of personal details or graphic pictures at showers. But good relevant information is helpful. And it is helpful for the single person, and sadly, the young girl. (If she's too young to hear it, she's too young to be at a bridal shower.) We live in a world where 11-year olds get pregnant and while we may travel in more protected circles, there are always exceptions. Often unknown to those around them.
I'm thankful for all the advice I was given-I benefited from being among the last in my immediate group of friends to marry. But my sex education started at 8 with a conversation with my mom and it built from there. Knowledge doesn't cheapen the experience, and being able to discuss it with women makes discussing it with your husband-to-be and then husband much easier. -rlr
Sara--So what ABOUT pillows? (Just kidding!)
Carrie--I sympathize with the need for keeping private things private. But while detailed physical how-to's are certainly not appropriate for public discussion, the attitude of our hearts is something worth talking about and receiving encouragement from other believers. And in that case I think it's helpful to hear from more than just your mom, because people have different perspectives on this just as they might on any other topic.
Jenna~I totally love the idea of the lingerie shower you described.
Great post Amy! Obviously this is a topic many struggle with in one form or another. For the comments being made about young ladies attending bridal showers, I think there are a couple things we need to look at. 1) I don’t think talking about sex at a bridal shower “wakes love before its ready” – I think that’s referring to your behavior before marriage. 2) The teenage years are when all of these questions are coming to a head! Boys and girls are noticing each other in a different way, and Christian guidance is needed. 3) Bridal showers represent another aspect of growing up and becoming an adult. Why should the advice suddenly stop at sex when that is a key element to a marriage? You’ve made it clear that the topic needs to be approached with much tact and constructivism (is that even a word??). I guess the problem is, not everyone has that when approaching the subject. So do you just go for it at the risk of scaring everyone about their own pillows? : ) SJ threw out some great examples of advice women could share. If the group is more intimate, they could go farther I guess. It’s hard to put some sort of outline on the whole thing b/c there really are so many different type of showers given. I just keep thinking that women used to talk with each other a lot more. That’s where young ladies used to learn about life, and from all different perspectives. It sounds like many parents do NOT discuss this issue with their kids enough and it would be nice for the situation to have a Christian stand point vs. the world hounding us with their own perspective.
ROTFLOL!
"... sex is a source of conflict for most couples, especially during their first year of marriage."
Darn, here it looks like we've been going at it all backwards! Honey, we've got to start quarreling, we haven't been fighting about sex enough!
“Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” Titus 2:3-5
Older women are commanded to teach the younger women to “love their husbands.”
I think the ideal would be a mandatory lingerie shower attended only by married women, for the soul purpose of sharing encouragement and experience relating to sex.
K.B.
wow...i love it that some of my good friends all had such great things to say on this topic. all i can say is that if/when i get married, i know who i'm calling for advice! ;-)
QOC - Yes, I think I agree with you. A generic discussion of it wouldn't bother me. If you are discussing the attitude of one's heart, yes, that should be discussed. But that's something that doesn't apply to just the bedroom but should be spread out throughout the marriage. I got some really good advice at my shower and it applied across the board. No one felt uncomfortable and nothing real or imagined was mocked. Again, I don't think it requires a detailed discussion or even a "so very probing" one. And I understand Rachelle's point about it "being everywhere" (not that that makes the point that since its everywhere we'll talk about it TOO!) ........although I find the fact that it is everywhere quite obnoxious.
If there was a tasteful way to go about it -- and again -- I think that the discussions at showers (if I HAVE to attend them to begin with!) can be generic and spot on at the same time. A heart attitude affects more of life than just what happens in the bedroom. And I frankly don't want to hear about other people's bedrooms, thanks. I think the argument that "teenagers are thinking about it anyway" mirrors the world's argument for sex ed which is a farce and hasn't helped matters at all.
I maintain that the best possible scenerio for a bride or groom is to have parents who were smart and respectful enough of the subject to discuss it with their kids in a timely fashion and in a manner consistant with Biblical truth. If this happens, public discourse on the subject would be as shocking as it used to be before premarital sex became the norm rather than the exception.
Perhaps the "fault" or the "blame" (as it were) shouldn't be placed on the Christian women who throw showers for brides-to-be (I never noticed the elephant either.) but we should encourage parents to take responsibility in that area as well as they raise their children in the nuture and admonision of the Lord. Seems like the problem of lack of advice would simply disappear if that were the case.
Carrie – I never advocated a “detailed discussion” at a shower, but was simply bemoaning that this crucial topic is avoided like the plague amongst Christian women. Did I miss something and we agreed all along?
You say because it’s everywhere, we’ll talk about it “TOO.” Sorry, but my experience is, because it’s everywhere, Christians attempt to be even more sheltering and quiet about the subject—so, we shut up and let the world dominate. That is a very unfortunate lost opportunity, in my opinion. We need to be more open with BOTH married ladies and single ladies because they each have respective needs for advice and wisdom in this area.
The more we talk about it, the less uncomfortable it will be. Perhaps if more Christian women in your life had talked about it with you, you would be more comfortable with it. That’s what we should shoot for as Christians.
You said: “I think the argument that ‘teenagers are thinking about it anyway’ mirrors the world's argument.”
Carrie, I’m not saying—“They’re thinking about sex so give them condoms.” I’m AM saying, “Unless a girl is kept in a closet all her childhood (which I doubt you advocate), she is already being exposed to worldly ideas of sex and we need to give her Christian ideas too.” Do you see the essential difference in that?
I never advocated that older women should detail specifics about “what happens in their bedrooms.” What I did say was a question—why do Christian women so frequently shy away from glaring opportunities to say very generic things about sex, therefore getting us all to think about it in a God-glorifying and biblical way—in addition to the 942 other things we are asked to think about.
Whether or not you personally experienced a bumpy road with this issue your first year of marriage does not negate the fact that many couples do. Let’s stop shying away from this issue.
Lastly, I’m amazed at how many people have misconstrued what I said about what should be said. Did these people even read my post or just skim over it so they could quickly move on to post their opinions about this obviously heated topic?
There is a big difference between me suggesting that Christian women should, along with the four other pieces of marriage advice they give, be unafraid to say: "Oh yes, and you should also definitely make sure to communicate with each other about sex and seek advice if there is a problem.” And THIS (which I did not suggest, and would not suggest be said at a shower setting): “I wear orange lingerie and you should too.” Hello! Read the post, people. I plainly stated that things should be constructive and tactful.
Does anyone really think that another mother would be offended if the word sex is mentioned at a bridal shower and her 11-year-old daughter later asks about it? If a child is old enough to remember to ask her mother about "that word she heard" at a later date, then it's time for the mother to be starting sex conversations ANY WAY.
Again, the more we talk about it, the less uncomfortable it will be. And I think that’s a good thing.
And maybe that's why I wrote this blasted post to begin with.
Hey Amy!
I hear what you are saying. Really, I do! =)
Like I said, I think I'm agreeing with QOC (I think) in saying that a generic discussion is acceptible but I don't think its a big elephant and I still dont' think its a good idea to be talking about it like its "no big deal" (like a Friends episode would lead you to believe). I'm saying it shouldn't be as flippant as it is - and I DON"T think it needs to sat around and discussed socially in the context that it usually is done in -- shower or no.
I think discussing a heart attitude is PERFECT because it address every single area that I can THINK of in a marriage, from sex to cooking to washing dishes to mowing the yard! That's essentially and basically it. Conflict arises when one person is deciding to sin against the other in some way - (knowingly and sometimes unknowingly, I realize). That's MY point. It doesn't NEED to be a "let's all sit down and talk about sex now because that's part of marriage." So is clipping your toe nails so as not to scratch anyone and/or gross anyone out. So are a million other things. I think you just picked one topic and its a hot button one but whoever said its a heart issue had it right.
And I still think it would be better if parents were taught and trained how to teach and train their kids. Again, then this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.
Either way, you can bet the guys are talking about it at the bachelor party....
09I said myself there's a lot more to marriage than the bed. But to a couple who doesn't know how to discuss and work through the sex question, it can overshadow everything (laugh all you like, J. -- the day for communication vs. conflict will come). Christians grow up seeing the world exploit and abuse sex, and rightly learn that it is wrong; but when there's no Christian viewpoint to counter it, the logical step is that sex itself is somehow wrong. That was certainly my experience.
By "Christian viewpoint" I don't mean just churches teaching, "Sex is God's gift. Wait for it." I mean women (not just mothers)treating it as a normal part of life. General advice on heart issues is all fine and good, but bedroom issues are much closer to the heart, and at the very least people should know where to find answers to their questions.
I'm very grateful to a husband who, from the first, dragged the subject of physical pleasure into the sunlight and made it something wonderful. I also enjoyed my lingerie shower, where I was teased and heard happy, racy stories from married women. I realized that my marriage bed wasn't something I had to blush about.
An 11-year-old girl who overhears women talking of sex with laughter and wisdom is a very lucky girl. I wish I had.
-- SJ
P.S. To clear up any residual curiosity, the reference to pillows was an on-the-spot invention. Stop thinking about it.
This is wayyyyyyyyy late, but Amy, I agree with you. A thought I had is that there could be general things discussed about intimacy (with the bride hopefully knowing the topic would be coming up so as to not be taken by surprise) and then women could, if they wanted, write down on an index card (anonymously) a tip they have or a particular fun thing she enjoys with her husband. With it being anonymous, the bride wouldn't have anyone's face come to mind if she took advantage of that tip!
But overall, because it seems the majority of parents DON'T cover things that well (and it could be kinda awkward to have your Mom talking about sex since it has to do with your Mom and Dad's experience), the other good source for info is godly women who have marriage experience.
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